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Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 Content Assuming for a moment you actually believe what you are saying...everything you post is doing quite literally the exact opposite of me. moderator edit: content Edit: I'm getting seriously sick of being "moderated" just for being honest with what you let people get away with every day. Edited October 28, 2014 by carpesangrea | |} ---- "They're not delivering" is subjective. The reasons why MMO fails in numbers isn't because the people behind it made a poor job but because there's a threshold for success in the number of players in the game. This number can hardly be achieved by new MMOs because for one, the MMO business is slowly going out of fashion. They're just not as wanted by the average player as they were 10 years ago. And also, on top of that, WoW has most of the numbers of MMORPG players. When they started the project, MMOs were still somewhat strong, they couldn't anticipate everything. So no, it doesn't have to be someone's fault. It just is. You can blame them for the changes you want not coming when you want them, but that's just childish. And there's nothing healthy about trying to find someone to blame. For example, I heard you used to be a respected posters here. So how healthy your latest posts changed that. As for the laid off, the game will continue for a while, so I'm not gonna bother myself trying to figure out if by summer next year I might stop enjoying Wildstar if I enjoy it now. I'm sorry for those who lost their jobs. | |} ---- ---- Just because nobody is publicly complaining about it, doesn't mean it's not a issue. They are testing Avatus because players are getting very close to reaching him. When they encounter a bug, they fix it and they should. Just because the fix doesn't affect you doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it. | |} ---- I agree partially. In fact there are bugs that affect a way bigger audience. Avatus Disruption Beam #lol. :D Thanks for fixing! No question. | |} ---- Bugs at the final boss will affect a lot more than 120 people as soon as people get there. Because if the final boss is not fun or unkillable, people will know it and it will color their perceptions of the entire game. | |} ---- This, although that's probably the least of their concerns right now. | |} ---- ---- I disagree, a game is developed by a group of people who are meant to provide a service to their customer base, similar to any other business. They are here to provide to their player base, and if they fail to do so they are only to blame for this. Yes, MMO's are going out of fashion, but the remainder of this population, between the haters and the white knights, care about the game and give good feedback to the dev's time and time again to be completely ignored. Now, this is going to be a really unrelated analogy, but I like telling stories and it's good for seeing the silly reasoning everyone seems to have gotten recently (aka you can't blame them for the changes you want not coming when you want them- changes that have been asked many many times, for many months have been blindsided, that's not ONE person in the community but many) Have you watched Kitchen Nightmares? Gordon Ramsey goes into a kitchen and watches why businesses are failing, helps them rethink their ways and build a new start, most of the time he works out that it's not only because the food is average... (for context purposes, lets use the broken pvp system as an example, it's terrible but we can put up with it for now) but before even that issue, most of the problems stem from the management. The head chef and Su chef do not get along, they argue all the time, the servers mess around in the kitchen and don't listen to what anyone has to say, the general manager has some good input but gets mainly ignored. The chef receives the plate of food back with a complaint about it, they ignore it and carry on messing about in the kitchen. Another complaint for the same type of food comes back, same complaint but different table. The management shrug it off and carry on messing around in the kitchen. Now there are plates of food coming in from all angles, all the while the kitchen is a mess with no organisation, the tickets are chaotic in no order and small amounts of food are trickling out of the kitchen keeping some people happy (hotfixes, patches). Eventually a few people get angry and come into the kitchen and leave a few comments about how the food could be improved. The management even though they understand the concern, at the will of the chef shake their head and say "no it's fine as it is, go sit back down and eat your food", but some people are so disgusted with the management's decision to not listen to their criticism at all, that they walk out and never return. Some people sit in the restaurant and complain loudly, some are perfectly happy with their subpar service. Who is in the wrong in that context? Well I guess it might be the people owning the place for not taking criticism on board, or dismissing things. It may also be the customer's fault for not being patient. Gordon normally sorts the problem by changing the Company's way of thinking. Most of the time they fail, and slip back into old ways, but in some cases they are fantastic and really pull through and make changes. As much as I have to say that maybe the people let go at carbine may have been hindering progress ont the game, lets hope the rest of the team will band together and work harder to listen, and provide for their paying customer base. Now I want pizza :/ | |} ---- Assuming they were let go for cause and weren't scapegoats. Really depends on who made the call. | |} ---- You know what's subjective? Your opinion. Want to know what isn't? THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE PLAYING THIS GAME. The amount of $$$$$ going somewhere besides Carbine Studios / NCSoft isn't subjective. People base their whole careers off of economic trends, business management, and marketing. Things don't just happen. Further, an ad hominem (this word autocorrects to Eminem #*cupcake*2014 ) attack about whether I'm a respected poster here is stupid. Some people consider me a respected poster because I bluntly display the truth / necessary opinions in a way that's easy to understand. You can think of me like Batman. Not everyone likes the Batman, but someone has to do the job until someone else (Carbine) steps up and does theirs. All of us here understand that there are good aspects of the game, and many of us still enjoy playing it, to an extent. Somewhere along the spectrum of, "This is my life's work," and "I don't care about this shit it's just a game," people bring their constructive and negative criticism to the forums in an attempt to better the game. Finally, I'm not here for the respect of the other posters. A large number of frequent posters roleplay Chua / Aurin as a hobby, and a big part come here to gloat / white knight / rage out. So if you think that the respect of frequent posters of a video game forum is what I think is necessary to post good and accurate content, you're sorely mistaken. The only thing I'm here to do is help bring about the change that brings more people into this game, so that I can do more of the thing that I enjoy. | |} ---- They may not be subjective, but they are unknown (to us at least). What isn't subjective is for each of us if there are enough people playing the game for us to do the things we enjoy. But even if there aren't (and generally, I'm fine with the number of people I interact with), knowing how to address this and improve is not something any of us has perfect knowledge about. There are a thousand different opinions about how to "fix" Wildstar, and many of them are by doing things that are likely impossible on Carbine's end. Of course the long term health of the game matters, but that's also an unknown. We don't know how many subscribers the game needs for it to stay healthy in terms of what is being developed for it. I think Carbine has made a great game. Have their decisions driven people away? I don't know. I know many of you are certain they have. I'm not sure how many of those people they could have retained with different decisions and how much is just the state of MMOs today. And neither is anyone else. All we have is conjecture, which is fine, but we shouldn't put too much faith in our abilities to read tea leaves. | |} ---- Well, if all Batman did was sitting at the police office telling them they're bad at their job and he's so much better, I doubt anyone at all would like Batman. Anyway, it's quite a black and white scenario you've chosen as an analogy. The reality is a bit more nuanced and if Batman was real, I'd bet on the police before I put my confidence in a self-proclaimed vigilante. I'm not against criticism. But I'm not a fan of the blame game when we know so little of what is really happening at the office. The way criticism is delivered is important. To pick up on the batman analogy. A single person pushing his ideas is never a good idea, except in comic books. If the critisism is delivered in a way that can be discussed and improved by the community, all the better. If it's ignored, maybe it's because it wasn't good feedback or it's not feasible for whatever reasons - why jump to the conclusion that what you (speaking in general, not "YOU") think is good feedback gets ignored because they're incompetent? | |} ---- Every games, whatever the type will get a bigger influx of people at the beginning but lose a bunch as it goes. It's always that way. People who play MMO surely aren't adverse to it, but the popularity of the genre has declined over the years. Show me a single MMO that came out and had no problems at the start. Terms like "Poor planning; low attention to detail ;innovative product with little substance to support it" Were created not by specialists who analyzed the game but by regular Joes with an opinion and a meant to be heard (forums). Give me a fair comparison between succesful MMOs; there was so few we barely have a ground to compare. You can't arbitrarily set standards that fit your likings and we just don't have the tools to tell them they're doing a poor job. | |} ---- ---- ---- I say Batman and you want to pick apart the whole analogy? Seriously man, as I and other have pointed out here, you think a different logic than most other people. Are you employed? Please don't fixate on the things you know about (Batman) and disregard the things you don't know about (reality, the content of the post, etc.) Ah yes, the constructive members of the community. Those that sit idly by denouncing any counter-opinion or realistic viewpoint on a situation. Those that immediately call into question the person writing the post, not the content. Those that stick their fingers in their ears and shout "na na na" while situations unfold around them. Thanks for your input, constructive members of the community. We've made it this far into the downward spiral that is Wildstar, why not continue? You could do that, or "start listening," like the developers of Wildstar do not, and then start being constructive. Make the game more accessible by removing the huge blocks to player quality of life and fun. Remove the RNG barriers on nearly everything, and market this game to the intended crowd, IE The western MMO (casual) playerbase. You have to have a lot of casuals for some people to be hardcore. (I thought people knew that already?) | |} ---- You what to know whats really causing the game to lose subs? The constant nay sayers and doomsday posters. You are one of them. They still have well over 100 employee's. I could understand the panic if they dropped down to a crew of 20 or less. But lets be real here that didn't happen. Lets also look at some facts since you are preaching realistic viewpoints. After the core has been developed and art direction done, why would you keep those extra bodies on? You don't is the answer. Also Carbine hired alot of extra people before launch to get everything done and push it out the door. Again those extra bodies need to go. Just because its a smaller team now, doesn't mean that they can't perform. If anything I think they will perform better as they are smaller and more focused and able to communicate faster with each other. Again, you want realistic out looks? there you go now will you accept it or will you continue going on about how the game is doomed because they decreased expenses and trimmed fat they dont need? And your comment that the devs don't listen is just a slap in the face to them, they are listening. You just have some predetermined deadline in your head that if you don't get a response when you think you should that they didn't listen. Or because they don't respond to every post or whim on these forums that they didn't listen. Perfect example is the recent out cry about pvp server population issues. In which they replied hey its all good. Then the players literally threw a fit about it in the forums going on about how they don't care and don't listen. Not even a week and a half later they say okay we heard you, and while we think the population is okay you guys clearly don't so we are opening transfers BOTH ways to try and remdie the problem and let people go where they want. Yes it took them a week or so but they can't just flip a switch with choices like that there has to be meetings and plans laid out that takes a little time with everything else they do. They have done nothing but listen to the community to be honest. And every time they do there is backlash. OMG stop releasing updates with bugs.... they say okay you dont like bugs, so what we need to do is extend our content period to quarters and make sure its bug free... again they listened. Not good enough though because then you guys complain that content doesn't come fast enough and that they are again lol get this... not listening. I hope im not the only one that see's the utter ignorance in many happenings in these forums. | |} ---- The damage had already been done at this time. I'm sorry to say, I wont go on about it in this thread because there is already one for it, but it's bad managerial decisions that create problems like that. Carbine may have been fine with how stuff was, but the player base wasn't. It's caused tension and a split in the eu fanbase. Something that if they had evaluated their feedback from Eugenic/Codex and other high progress PvE guilds, who wanted to play predominantly on a pvp server. Now hopefully the realms will become healthy again and I am very grateful for Carbine to do this. However, with all the greatness of carbine (I think their closeness to the community is what keeps me playing) is the bad decisions, something that you can TELL by a lack of management. Any other MMO I would have literally given up by now, but as they were a new IP and worked on the game for such a long time, and always given great feedback, it's why I've stuck with them. Of course when I went on about the layoffs, which is an awful matter and I said I hoped they were more a hindrance than anything else, that was speculation on my part. We don't know exactly what the circumstances are, but the fact that cougar and his team backed down on such a HUGE stance they had on pvp/pve servers is a massive change for me and I certainly feel hopeful. Like I said in my analogy it's either the customer's fault for not being patient or understanding, or the company's fault for not recognising their own flaws and dealing with them. Hopefully with the megaserver change, which was great, and now the changes upcoming with drop 3 I am very hopeful for the future. | |} ---- Just keep in mind that your example of servers is a direct result of them not listening in the first place. Servers are dying please merge... Months later.... They do mega servers too late. Thanks for bolstering my argument. Besides, allowing those transfers is really easy. They just change their minds. The tech is already there. | |} ---- Well, it wasn't a very good analogy. It's why I'm taking it appart. And I do work, I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring it up. Please stop acting as if you and your 3 - 4 followers were the majority and some sort of leading experts. ------------ As for Carbine, for all we know maybe they're restructuring to strengthen and keep Wildstar afloat so it can gain momentum. So, the lay offs doubtly means the game is close to the end. You don't pay people for 5 years+ in a project just to thrash it 6 months after it's been out because it didn't gather millions of subscribers. | |} ---- No. Cargo cult thinking again. (Google it if you're not familiar with the term.) No one left the game because of the doomsayers on this forum or any other. Most game players never visit a forum of any kind. The game is losing subs because most MMO players don't enjoy it, and if you think anything else, you're simply wrong. | |} ---- I didn't bolster anything it was something that had been in the works before the game was even released. And simply wasn't ready yet. | |} ---- Negativity plants negative thoughts and doubts about things. If you are perfectly content with something then someone starts pointing out everything wrong with it, you then begin to see those things, and then those items that never bugged you before are now the worst thing in the world. Psychology 101 buddy. | |} ---- ----